Friday, December 12, 2008

I promised no more Likud posts but I can't resist a brief expansion on some earlier off-hand remarks.

The Likud primaries rule book is here. Read it!

Three things are absolutely clear:

1. Clause 12 makes clear that the top 21 places on the list are reserved for the leaders on the national list. There is no basis for removing Feiglin from the 20th slot.

2. Clause 27 makes clear that Ratzon and Yatom should not leapfrog into the vacated spots unused by women.

3. Clause 18d makes clear that, since there are four women above 29, Miri Regev has no case whatsoever to be moved up to the 29 spot (now the 27 spot due to the removal of Feiglin and Ratzon).

So two of the three decisions by the court are flat out wrong and rather egregiously so.

There is one drop of justice in all this. MY abandoned principle and arranged an unsavory marriage of convenience with Gila Gamliel, in the expectation that the deal would get enough additional votes for Feiglin to improve his rank on the list. Instead, as a result of votes she got from MY supporters, Gamliel beat Feiglin by 0.2% (I have all the numbers) knocking Feiglin from 19 down to 36. Ouch.

But just as Feiglin's machinations have come back to bite him, Bibi's much worse machinations are going to come back to bite him big time. (And rightfully so. If he can be sent into self-destruct panic mode by Feiglin, how's he going to react to Mr. Ahmadinejad?)


Anonymous zalman said...

New soundbite for Feiglin: VaTachlef et Mikomi Aseret Monim.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Y. Ben-David said...

I hate to have to say so, but my friend Ben Bayit and I have been warning this would happen for a long time, that they would get rid of Feiglin no matter what. His attempt to "infiltrate" the Likud is a total waste of time. Feiglin claims that he read up on all the propganda that the ultra-Leftist Matzpen group came up with in the 1960's and 1970's, how they were anti-Zionist and were constantly attacked by the Labor Zionist establishment as being "unpatriotic", yet, in the end, the Labor Party (and now even the Likud to some degree) has adopted their anti-Zionist program. BUT MATZPEN DID NOT 'INFILTRATE' THE LABOR PARTY. Instead, the heads of the Labor Party, Peres, Rabin, Beilin, Burg, Yael Dayan, etc, etc, etc. adopted their ideology. Thus, Feiglin came to the wrong conclusion.

Even though I do have to admit that the Likud list is better than I had thought possible, I have not changed my view...the Knesset list, in the end is irrelevant. Herb Keinon in the Jerusalem Post said that Bibi now has to form a gov't with Kadima, Labor and other Leftist parties in order to be able to ram throught whatever withdrawals and destruction of settelements that Obama will order him to do. They will again call the Likud people who oppose it "mordim" and cash and other benefits (like not being prosecuted for various crimes, real or imaginary) will bring at least some Likud MK's around, just like in the time of Sharon and "hitnatkut".

So, in the end, Ben, do you still think we should vote for the Likud or other allied parties (the ridiculously named "HaBayit HaYehudi"-MAFDAL) or should stay away from them and hope for another weak, discredited Leftist gov't like the current one which is destroying the country? You raise a good question...if Bibi acts like this now, what will he do when he is confronted with real, international heavyweights?

3:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you fool!! you think this is about which political party is easier to be political this is about wether the ideology can be brought to the political sphere and change it not who can be a bigger person in politics all of u are such fools

manhigut has despaired of fighting in the courts which i remember correctly last time they tried to not allow him to run in the knesset and the courts capitulated the point is its not fair that manhigut has despaired of justice because the people who do it are unjust the people need to be represented by someone real who will oppose netanyahu ``we dont want to rule over the west bank`` which is code for going along with obamas 1967 plan of core issues with his friends in hamas feiglin is not to give up because without manhigut yehudit in the knesset the ``right wing knesset`` can be manipulated to follow obamas convergance plan! and its the end of people beileving they can make a difference which is worse we cannot let bad people who make bad decisions to set the tone and we just say oh! you suck! but ok!

5:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

we cannot let a manipulatable right wing in the knesset we need real vision and goals its neccesary to move forward towards change

i hope ehud yatom is successful

why did feiglin quit

because he beileves other people control what is just and why fight for injustice when ure facing corruption

sometimes its not about wether u will win this is one of those times where u fight because it is the right thing to fight against injustice and moving around democracy and not to let a dictator manipulate his own slate soo he can say `` we wont rule over the west bank`` and albeit make a tough painful peace this time the pain will be wihin his own party

but feiglin could of fought against people who try to manipulate against their own ends this is a big mistake!

as u have showed fate is with us because the rules are a shadowy kelipah that wont stand up

please push in eretz yisroel manhigut yehudit to fight this injustice and to let real values to the knesset

5:22 PM  
Blogger Ben said...

Feiglins response, with which I completely agree:
לכאורה, משמעות הדבר היא שהייתי חייב עוד יותר לגשת לבית המשפט ולדאוג לביסוסי ברשימה. אך האמת היא הפוכה. אם הכרזתי מלחמה על אותו רודן נסתר ובשעת המבחן זחלתי אליו ונכנסתי לכנסת מכוחו – הרי שכל פטפוטי לא היו אלא כצפצוף הזרזיר. אם הבג"ץ היה דוחה את בקשתי לא הייתי יכול לטעון דבר מחוץ לכנסת, שכן אני הייתי זה שהכיר בסמכותו ופנה אליו. אם הבג"ץ היה מקבל את בקשתי לא הייתי יכול לפעול נגדו מתוך הכנסת, שכן כל מעמדי אינו אלא מכוח הכרתי בו ופנייתי אליו.

5:29 PM  
Blogger Russell said...

Could you translate that response for those of us not fluent in Israeli Hebrew?

6:58 PM  
Anonymous Aviad said...

1. To Y Ben David:
Tachles it doesn't matter if the people infiltrated or the ideology infiltrated. MF has no problem with the next Likud MKs being infiltrated by the ideology of the right and opposing BB, or let BB become more right wing. I don't understand the distinction that you make.

1b. I don't mind people being against MF or MY. However, an important part to bear in mind is that it's not mutually exclusive. That is, all you have to do is join the likud and spend 1 hr every two years taking part in a vote. (Ok, this year it may have taken 2 hours).
You don't have an hour a year free? If on the day of the vote you don't want to vote for MF, or you want to vote against him, then fine.
You reluctantly admit that the Likud list is better than you would have expected -- but why are you exempt from taking part in forming that list? You didn't need to vote for MF or GG if you didn't want to but there were plenty of others to choose from.
On election day you can decide to vote for someone else, you can propose alternative ideologies in the blogosphere and on Shabbat with friends, but if you are able to influence the make-up of right wing MKs in the Knesset, what is the reason that you haven't joined the Likud to vote? So you can't bear MF, but what about me? What about Am Yisroel? You won't help influence the Likud for our sake?

1c. The fact that the Likud list is better than you thought is presumably because MF got people like you and me to join the Likud (ok, I did and you didn't). I assume though that you won't credit MF with the right wing slant of the list, based on people like me voting for right wingers.

1d. The way BB reacts to MF has nothing to do to withstanding pressure from others. He is unable to withstand pressure from the Left who have made it clear to him that if he doesn't fight MF then they will give him no peace ("like we did to you first time you were PM, remember? It's good that you are openly left wing and good that the public hasn't realised. You are doing an excellent job BB. We just need you to do one more thing before we lock up the prakleftut and media attack dogs (stop barking!). We need you to delegitimise MF hysterically because he is the only thing that really remotely threatens our hegemony. Understand BB. Good.")
Other pressures? They are no way as threatening and uncomfortable as the prakleftut and media so you don't have to worry about BB.

Finally, many people criticised MF and especially MF2 saying they would do anything to get him in and to hell with everyone else. So, now he chose to go the risky route and try and get in as no. 36 and not challenge the decision. Are you still of the opinion that MF will do anything to get in? Or will facts not sway you?

12:21 AM  
Anonymous zalman said...

bibi is sounding baraklike with his "i set policy and everyone follows"

12:41 AM  
Blogger YMedad said...

why didn't yehiel leiter do better? was it only MY opposition?

12:51 AM  
Anonymous Ben-David said...

For many of us - as Aviad implies - MY has the right strategy, but the wrong staff.

So: join the Likud, but vote for who you want. Strengthen the right/nationalist character of the lineup.

The small parties are a dead-end.

2:07 AM  
Blogger freddy-Jerusalem said...

The idea behind MY is definitely the way to go (I gave feiglin the idea 4 years before the "asimon" dropped for him!).
Unfortunately, the decision makers in MY are not only imbeciles, they are motivated by their own greed and need to live off others. They all receive very nice salaries, huge expense accounts, including cars, phones, computers, restaurants etc.
Who pays? The donors in the US.
The $ spigot was about to be turned off - if feiglin did not make it in the knesset, so Fuah, who makes all the deals, and has done so since day 1, came up with a brilliant idea.
Make a "kenes" and invite all the candidates. Whoever agrees to sit at the head table and support Feiglin will get the pleasure of sitting with Fuah the next day for the prize. Lots of My votes for free.
Well, no one offered to sit at the table, so Fuah was forced to do what he has done up until this election. Bribe people with free votes to come to the kenes and sit at the head table.
Those that did, got plenty of free votes - Ayub Kara, Gila Gamliel, Boaz HaEtzni, Sagiv Asoulin, Kati Shitreet and Osnat Mark.
Amazing, except for Osnat, they all got in with better results than Feiglin. So what that Gamliel
took the job and car from Sharon in exchange for a vote for the expulsion. So what that Shitreet worked for the ex-mayor of Bet Shemesh - Danny Vaknin, a corrupt politician that supported the Expulsion. So what that Asoulin has been bought off by the evangelists who funded his entire campaign to the tune of tens of thousandss of dollars!! He and Feiglin were the only ones with bus ads for those who noticed - very very expensive advertising this is!

So what that Fuah could have easily placed 3 of his own people in these slots (young people, yesha and jerusalem) but chose to
push in 3 outsiders. I can't wait to see how they vote on future issues. Don't hold your breath people!

Bibi is not going to be the answer to our prayers. Far from it.
For those of you who think feiglin is the answer, forget it! After 9 years of seeing things from the inside and up close, I can say this man is no Jewish leader. He has no heart for people, is cold and calculating, does not trust anyone, will stab you in the back in an instant if he thinks you are against him (by correcting him in any way). He cannot admit to his mistakes, and closes his eyes to all kinds of inappropriate behavior.
Sackett has been living off MY for years now as their fundraiser, and can you believe this, no one in MY except him knows what his salary is? He takes his salary off the top before anyone in MY knows what came in. I know this for a fact!
I have been the Director of the Board of MY for the last 5 years and never got a straight answer about this.
The movement has lost it's values, it's reason for existing. Today the people on top of MY (all earning salaries)are just trying to make sure Moshe gets in as #36 so that the donor money keeps flowing and they all do not have to go out and look for new jobs!!
That is all that is left of this brilliant idea!
I am ready to stand behind every word here and I dare them to try and sue me!

fred moncharsh

10:42 AM  
Blogger Ben Bayit said...

Feiglin's assertion in the comment you provided just proves my point that he doesn't really care one way or another if he is in the knesset or not (if what the commenter claiming to be FM writes is true then coming "close" is OK - the donors will still put out - especially if Boaz Haetzni gets in and maintains some sore of allegiance to the MY faction). It certainly avoids him having to deal with the inevitable "sale of Yosef" that Bibi would engineer in order to force Feiglin out of the party (I guess he can't do that if the Likud doesn't get at least 36 seats).

The Likud list is irrelevant as there will be very few ministers from the "rebel" camp. I can see at least 30 or so settlements being taken down during Obama's first 2 years with a break for the congressional elections, before another big withdrawal takes place. The plan will be to leave the IDF in place as they did in Northerm Shomron. Unless people who support the settlements wake up soon, they will vote for the Likud which will strenghten its ability to do this.

As the problem is systemic, and there is almost no likelihood of the problems being "fixed" during the next knesset (nor is there any likelihood a constitution of any sort being passed during the next term either) I find it very difficult to understand why we should continue to vote for the largest mainstream party that mostly reflects our interests (or however it is that you suaully formulate it prior to elections). It is pretty clear that such a vote will ultimately be a "wasted vote" (rather than a vote for small parties being a "wasted vote" - to undo the usual arguments....)

6:40 PM  
Blogger freddy-Jerusalem said...

Coming close will not be enough for Feiglin. He needs to get in.
HaEtzni and the others ahead of feiglin will probably not tow the MY manifesto. maybe Boaz a bit more than the others.
If any of these people had been MY people, maybe Feiglin would have been able to sell this to the donors, but it would be a hard sell at best. Since none of the people MY supported are MY, the donors will not buy the merchandise, in my humble opinion.
I wouldn't if I were them!

6:49 PM  

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