On Erev Rosh Hashanah and Erev Yom Kippur, I do my ritual ablutions at a fresh spring on the outskirts of a neo-chassidish baal teshuvah village near My Little Town. The difference between Jewish soul music and Shiny Shoe music is very roughly analogous to the difference between a natural spring in the forest and a grimy subterranean mikveh. It can't be a coincidence that this village is a center of neo-Carlebach soul music and that a new spring seems to appear in its vicinity every other month.
I love these guys. They harken back to something authentic in early chassidus that got lost in transition and at the same time are profoundly funky in a way that FFBs are simply incapable of achieving. This can be a risky combination for child-rearing, but I'm envious nevertheless.
There was NOTHING authentic about early hasidus. Haven't you ever heard of the Vilna Gaon? Did he hate them for his health?
ReplyDeleteYou appologists have got to realize that in the very begining hasidus was a wrong turn, and a bad mistake. It was well on its way off the derech until the Alter Rebba took it by the horns and pulled it back, reminding the oh so enthusiastic early hasidim that, hey, halacha matters.
Obviously Bat Ayin. I drive there all the way from Jerusalem to use the maayan there. If prophecy returns to Israel it will probably start with kids raised there. The Avoda Ivrit conciousness is also incredibly impressive.
ReplyDeleteI'm a big fan of a little eatery they have there called Gavne. Great food & great setting!
ReplyDeleteDavid (treppenwitz)
I love that place. If they'd serve pastrami, I'd have a regular table.
ReplyDeleteFirst comment: I assume that's you, Dope. You're like a disease. Leave Ben alone.
ReplyDeleteBen: Funny story about the village of which you so fondly speak. We had a young BT living in our home for about six months. She was the ultimate refuge-from-the-60's-artsy-flower-child. She really needed to get to Israel and we arranged for her to study at the girls school at the village. We assumed it would be a perfect place for her.
After a couple of months she transferred to a mainstream BT seminary in J'lem because the seminary in the village was too 'out-there' even for her!
Perhaps Ben will deign to explain why he used the word "authentic" to describe a radical movement that was fiercely and mightly opposed by the leading halachic authorities of the time.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't an impertinent question. I'd like Ben's view.
uh, he wrote "authentic in early chassidus" not "authentic."
ReplyDeleteBTW, I don't know who you are, but I'm pleased to see you. I thought *I* was a misnagid, but I see that I have a ways to go.
ReplyDeleteI was just stating the facts. I had no intention of starting a controversy. Ben called early hasidus "authentic" ("authentic in early chassidus" suggesting that the first hasidim tapped into something genuine.)
ReplyDeleteIf this is true, what was radical about their movement? Why did the Vilna Gaon move heaven and earth attempting to stamp them out? Is Ben suggesting that the Gaon was wrong to oppose them? Is ben suggesting that whatever the Hasidim had that was "authentic" was unknown to the Gaon? Does he think these first Hasidim had something to teach the great leader of European Judaism? Had HE lost something authentic?
I'd like to know.
My questions aren't rude. MoChassid just refuses to think deeply about Hasidus and refuse to recognizes the movement's internal paradox.
ReplyDeleteBen, please: Why did the Vilna Gaon go to war with people who had discovered something "authentic" about Judaism?
The Gaon was wrong. Interesting. Is that you view Ben? Was the authority of Europe wrong? The implications here are staggering.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, the Gaon was right and Hasidim did teshuvah in subsequent generations?
Or perhaps the Gaon was right, the hasidim did not do teshuvah, and, therefore, we are doomed, as the hasidim continue to conquer Judaism.
You say the Hasidim came out of the holocaust religiously intact. This supposes that they were "religiously intact" before the holocaust. One wonders.
Also, you forget that the hasidim had geography on their side. The misnagdim were in Poland, in Lithuania, in France, and in Germany. Those areas were detroyed first. (and yes, Russian hasidim were brutalized here, too)
The hasidim who "came out of the holocaust" were in hungary and in romania. These areas were hit last, at the very end of the churban.
You are assuming the Haskala, was in fact, something to be avoided. This is by no means clear. Intelligent people can and have argued both sides. But, you wouldn't be a fancy-pants lawyer in a nice big house without the haskala. Ben wouldn't be living in Israel or applying probability to halacha without the haskala. We wouldn't be communicating in English without the Haskala. And if the real, hard-core hasidim in williamsburg and monsey would lower their holy selves to acknowledge the haskala, perhaps they would not be cheating the government in order to survive,* but that's a discussion for another morning. Today, I wish to hear from Ben on Hasidus
ReplyDelete* Please don't tell me it isnt true. It is true, and in very large numbers. Section 8, welfare, medicaid, and medicare fraud is rampant in both places, and without this fraud there would be large-scale homelessnees and starvation in both places. (or there would be a tremendous tzedaka burdon on us, the corrupt sinners who did profit from the Haskala and its lessons. They won't marry our daughters or let us daven for their amud, but our money is green enough for them, isn't it?)
He's a decendant, not an ancestor, and the fact that he (1) speaks english (2) studiess history (3) knows math among (4) many others things about him, tells me that somewhere, sometime, he or his ancestors encountered the haskala. Keep talking. We'll see you know even less about the haskala than you know about hasidim - if that was possible.
ReplyDeleteAnd now playing in MoChassid's brain: This... does ... not... compute. Was.... taught haskala = bad and hasidim = good. Can't... understand... other view.... Must... not... open... mind. Must... not... study... history... Must ... not... think. Me.... Jew!! Must... have... kugel.... ahhh.... kugel... good. Me... happy... now.
You could probably be a good lawyer without knowing too much. Nobody said all lawyers had brains.
ReplyDeleteLikely you went to law school and paid attention. We can tell from all your scribling though that if you ever went to Jewish history school you spent the whole time dreaming of kugel.
"He said they came out of the HASKALAH more intact"
ReplyDeleteThis is tiresome. Once you take the numbers who converted or identified as Reform and Neologen into account and the relative numbers killed in the Holocaust into account, you see that chassidus conferred no special protection against the holocaust. How long are chassidim going to dine out on the fact that a) conversion, Reform and Neologen were not options in Lite and b) that 85-90% of litvakes died in the Holocaust?
oops, above, I meant to write that it conferred no special protection against HASKALAH. The notion that misnagdim were specially susceptible is myth based on cultural differences in how the Haskalah effected groups in different countries.
ReplyDeleteHassidim didn't do any better fighting irreligion in preWWII US than misnagdim did, either.
To spell this out. People ignore the large numbers who converted in Hungary, and those who joined nonOrthodox movements and were essentially lost, and look at what is most visible: a large group of observant Hungarian chassidic survivors. So they conclude "chassidus worked against the haskala."
ReplyDeletePeople then look at Lite, and speak of the large numbers of atheists etc in preWWII Lite, and conclude that hisnagdus didn't work. They forget that there were no converts to speak of in Lite, and no Reform movement there, so - unlike in Hungary - all the irreligious get counted. Once you take Hungarian irreligious into account, there is no difference in preWWII Lite and elsewhere in numbers who abandoned Orthodoxy due to the haskala.
Then people turn to post Holocaust situation, and say "where are the surviving Orthodox misnagdim"? They forget that there are so many fewer misnadische and Orthodox unaffiliated survivors of the war - they were there before the war, but they lived in areas that were hit first and harder.
The area where misnagdim survived was the US, and there they appear to be mostly irreligious -- this is because in every group, chassidic and nonchassidic, in preWWII US, people abandoned orthodoxy. There were just more litvakes and nonchassidim here than in Hungary in the first place.
The only real thing you can say is that when Chassidim came to the US en masse postWWII, they were able to form communities, institutions and etc more easily than others b/c they functioned as kehillas, and this gave them a real advantage in the postWWII environment. Nonchassidim owe them a debt. None of this has much to do with chassidus, as an ideology, surviving haskala. It has to do with the ability of a kehilla to pick up and reroot itself in a new country.
I was right, Mochassid was wrong. Thanks, rabbi doctor anon.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in important ways, the hasidim were affected by the haskala in the way all of us were. It got through the door cracks and once it came in, there was no beating it back. And look at the results. Real-Hasidim now educate their girls, speak english and more. In lubovitch they are virtually indistiguishable from non-hasidim - most go to university, and study Judaism and TOrah using modern methods. Meanwhile, soft-core-phony-hassidim like moochassid dip into both worlds and take whatever they like, all the while paying lip service to the glories of hasidism.
None of that could have happened without the influence of the haskalah.
All that matters is that I was right and you were wrong. Haskala wasn't evil, and it didn't save the hasidim. If the question is Jewish history you don't go to a lawyer for the answer, I can see.
ReplyDeleteThat was a funny post you just wrote, by the way. Probably because it was mostly true. I can just see you like Homer Simpson going, hmmmmm, kugel.
That "anonymous blogger" made perfect sense. It is stupidity in the extreme to believe that hasidut afforded special protection against the haskala. If the Nazis had charged into Hungary and Romania first and left Lithuania and Germany for the end (allowing the residents of those areas to survive in large numbers) would you be saying that being a msinagid protected them?
ReplyDeleteUsing your specious and rediculous logic you'd be forced to take that position.
Also, it's the hight of absurdity for an (1) english speaking (2) lawyer who lives in a (3) big house, (4) participates in Ohel, (5) sends his girls to school and (6) and his kids to learn in Israel (7) and who went to college and (8) will send his kids to college and (9) more to insist his holy life was untouched and unifluenced by the haskala. I mean come on.
True you know nothing about history and the haskala did encourage Jews to learn history, so you do have that on your side. But otherwise you, sir, are a product of the haskala like every other Jew alive today.
"Using your specious and rediculous logic you'd be forced to take that position."
ReplyDeleteBecause the only reason you think that hasidut protected from the HASKALA is because you see all these hasidim and think: hmmmm, kugel, I mean, hmmmm, lots of frum hasidim, must be that the haskala couldn't touch them and make them not frum.
When really you see all those hasidim simply because they survived the holocaoust in bigger numbers, and they only managed to do that because of who Hitler attacked first and last. So thank Hitler for all the hasidim. His choice is what protected them. Not their hasidut.
Had Hitler wiped out the haisidm instead, you'd see all the frum misnagdim instead and you would think: hmmmm kugel, I mean, hmmm lots of frum misnagdim, must be the haskala couldn't touch them.
MOChossid, the relevant comparison is not Chossid to MO, because MO is by definition already influenced by haskolo. It's how many from the right-wing nonChassidic world were influenced by haskala vs how many Chassidim were.
ReplyDeleteComparison with the contemporary situation in the US is not very helpful (but fwiw, the group with the most dramatic attrition is probably Satmar).
The other mistaken premise here is that in Europe those who weren't chassidim were misnagdim or "litvish." The vast majority of Jews were unaffiliated with either chassidus or hisnagdus/litvishkeit.
"I am not disputing the results of the Holocaust; that was never the issue. But YOUR logic is all screwed up. The results of the holocaust prove nothing (either way) about the haskalah and its relative effects on chassidim/Litvish."
ReplyDeleteYou miss the point. The facts contradict your position - in fact, chassidim were lost to the haskala in droves. The reason this is news to you is due to the Holocaust - the most prominent survivors were Hungarian, and religious Hungarian Jews were primarily Chassidic or became Chassidim in the US. Therefore, it looks to you and other chassidic triumphalists as though, before the holocaust, the Jews who stayed religious were more likely to be chassidic. In fact, Hungarians have an affinity for chassidus (probably it's more an affinity for kano'us).
We kicked his butt, so now he says he was only joking. What a cop-out. (Meanwhile, on Hirhurim he takes credit for everything.)
ReplyDeleteWhen will Reb Ben explain why he called Hasidism "authentic."
ReplyDeleteMOChossid, we take you seriously because we know that inside every Jew there is a pintele litvak that needs to be encouraged.
ReplyDeleteWe love you Mo. We worry about you Mo. We wish you a speedy refuah shlayma from your hasidism. Also, you lost on the logic points, so maybe you could have listened in law school? I'll explain
ReplyDeleteYou say:
a - Hasidim beat the haskala b/
b - we see them.
However
b - we see them
c - because hitler didnt kill them
Had
d - Hitler not killed the misnagdim, you would
e - see them, and be forced to argue
f - Misnagdim beat the haskala
Anyway -
g - many many more hasidim esp in Russis became not frum thanks to the haskala. These are incontrovertable facts.
Ben - tell us why you called the hasidim authentic, when in fact they were a reform.
::I said chassidim had better success against the haskalah than the misnagdim::
ReplyDeleteI think you pulled that out of your nose. Where's the evidence to back up the claim? Don't lawyers hold from evidence? Because you said it, I should beleive it? No way. We want some proof. Or at least someone (NOT BERYL WEIN WHO IS AN IDIOT) with credentials who can back you up!
Like all poorly-educated Jewish men, you are just repeating the mumbo-jumbo you overheard at sholosh seudot without stopping to think about it even for a second. Examine your received wisdom, or stop repeating it!!
The REAL DOPE
::I said chassidim had better success against the haskalah than the misnagdim::
ReplyDeleteI think you pulled that out of your nose. Where's the evidence to back up the claim? Don't lawyers hold from evidence? Because you said it, I should beleive it? No way. We want some proof. Or at least someone (NOT BERYL WEIN WHO IS AN IDIOT) with credentials who can back you up!
Like all poorly-educated Jewish men, you are just repeating the mumbo-jumbo you overheard at sholosh seudot without stopping to think about it even for a second. Examine your received wisdom, or stop repeating it!!
The REAL DOPE
How does the MoShmo have time to write all these comments? Isn't he busy riding his bike (and telling us about it) and taking care of his foster kid (and telling us about it?)
ReplyDeleteHow will he ride his bike in Israel,if his shoulder is out of joint from all the back patting?
Last Anonymous comment:
ReplyDeleteNot that I have to justify myself to an anonymous cretin like you, but I've raised more than $10,000 for Alyn Hospital in Israel through my ride (and, yes, publicizing it).
And, if anyone who understands English can suggest that fosterboy is about patting myself on the back, he's dumber than dumb.
Besides, I CAN ride with my shoulder out of joint.
Foster Boy, starring my amazing family, by MoChassid, with occasional guest appearences by the boy himself.
ReplyDeletethe Cretin.
MOChossid, we take you seriously because we know that there is a pintele litvak inside every Jew that needs to be encouraged.
ReplyDeleteRe : "That may be correct or it may be incorrect."
It's incorrect. The effects of the Holocaust may or may not be influencing your views; what certainly is influencing you is that those lost to the Haskala in chassidic areas were lost to conversion, Reform, etc. and you aren't taking those numbers into account. When you do, the notion that Haskala had a worse impact on misnagdim is refuted. Get some history books and do the math.
Hag Someach, MO
ReplyDeletePlease tell us your evidence for statintg that the Haskala had a worse affect on Misnagdim. If you saw it in a book, which book? If you heard it from a noted historian, which historian? This idea is plainly in your head. From where did it come?
Also, Ben authentic = hasidic you said, but why?
is ben moshe koppel?
ReplyDeleteThere is some real ignorance here.Firstly-german Jews might have been 'hit' by the holocaust first-but they were by far the group that suffered most-more survived than died.
ReplyDeleteMost Hasidim did die in the holocaust-almost the entire polish hasidic community was wiped out.
Hungarian hasidim were far far less numerous than Polish hasidim- pre war Polish hasidic community estimated at 700 000 souls-Hungarian 70 000 souls.
Nonetheless-the predominance of hungarian hasidim today is not merely the result of the fact that they died less than polish hasidim.
Hungarian hasidim were in fact known as Kanaim prior to the war. The hungarian hasidim were in fact the descendants of Polish hasidim who had moved to hungary to avoid legislation requiring children to learn secular subjects.
lastly there are today numerous litvish jews.
No one disputed any of what you add, including the main point - I wrote:
ReplyDelete"In fact, Hungarians have an affinity for chassidus (probably it's more an affinity for kano'us)."
No one was discussing German Jews, or pretending that Polish Jewry wasn't decimated -- Polish chassidic Jewry and Polish unaffiliated.
Still, Hungarian chassidim are overrepresented among survivors. You can't conclude that their chasssidus or their kanu'os was effective against haskala, because apart from their location/circumstances during the war, there were large numbers of Hungarians who converted or joined various reformist/Neologen groups. There was nothing similar in Lite.